Are vapour-less e-cigs the answer to vaping in confined public spaces?
Tuesday, March 18, 2014 at 13:03 Here's one for vapers to chew on.
Following last week's decision by Irish Rail to ban the use of e-cigarettes on all train services my Forest Eireann colleague John Mallon wrote to the company and complained.
Today he received this reply:
Dear Mr Mallon
Thank you for your e-mail.
The smoking of cigarettes is prohibited on trains and at railway stations. Given their remarkable likeness the use of e-cigarettes can cause concern amongst other passengers, and they contain nicotine products known to be harmful.
In the same way as you would expect people to react if you were to smoke an e-cigarette in a restaurant, in the confined space of a railway carriage or platform, their use has led to complaints. In light of this, we have issued guidance to our staff and introduced a ban for the comfort and convenience of their fellow passengers.
Similarly to being asked to turn off a mobile phone if the conversation is causing irritation to others, most customers observe a form of social etiquette and do not deliberately undertake actions when they realise these could be annoying other people in their vicinity.
I note your unhappiness with this ban. If other guidance is issued by the Dept. of Health and/or via EU regulation, we will take these into consideration.
Now, two things strike me.
One, the claim that e-cigarettes "contain nicotine products known to be harmful". Er, what would they be? Nicotine can be addictive, that much we know, but harmful? Evidence, please.
Two, the mobile phone analogy doesn't work because mobile phones aren't banned on trains (apart from in the 'quiet coach'). Instead of banning e-cigs on trains good social etiquette would require vapers to ask fellow passengers in their immediate vicinity if they minded if they vaped on the train. Or if someone really didn't like it they could ask the vaper (politely) to stop.
This does however lead me to another aspect of vaping – the exhalation.
When I attended the E-Cig Summit in London last year I noticed at least one person exhaling large clouds of vapour. A similar thing happened at the launch of the IEA Lifestyle Unit. Several guests were vaping but one (there's always one) was being deliberately ostentatious, to make a point, perhaps.
It struck me then that some e-cigarettes (and their users) don't do themselves any favours because while I don't believe the vapour from an e-cigarette is harmful, I can understand why some people don't want to be stuck in a confined space while the person next to them exhales large clouds of vapour (no matter how quickly it disperses).
So last week, when I read that one e-cig manufacturer has developed a vapour-less product, I did think, "That sounds like a good idea."
I then watched Vapour Trails TV and discovered that for some people the exhalation is the best bit. (I understand this too because it's the exhalation of vapour, as much as anything, that mimics the act of smoking.)
So we've got a problem, Houston, and I'm not sure how we resolve it. Thoughts welcome.
Update: The stupidity of Irish Rail (Forest Eireann)
Reader Comments (18)
There isn't much point to vaping if there's no vapour, I would have thought. A bit like smokers need smoke when smoking or there's no point.
The nicotine is harmful myth is only one way. When the NHS or anti-smoker quangos hand NRT patches and gum out to kids like sweets then clearly nicotine is not harmful. It only becomes harmful if the company or industry selling it is one that the quangos disapprove of.
This is yet another prime example of smokerphobia. Fearing smokers - or vapers - with absolutely no grounds to have fear.
It's like going back to the 80s and people fearing they'd catch aids if they just stood next to a gay person at a bus stop.
As I have said before, the Govt happily took tax from my generation of children's pocket money. Today's Govt has a duty to stop marginalising and stigmatising us and making smokerphobia a hate crime would stop this kind of paranoid nonsense from Irish Rail.
We already have the vapourless e(style)cigarette it's the nicorette inhalator that contains more chemicals than ecigarettes. Not to worry though 'cos it's safe and made by nice pharma.
It's all about understanding the environment we find ourselves in and respect for others, even if we think their objections are misguided. Those around us have been conditioned to see visible exhalations as something obnoxious, or even revolting, and thanks to the BMA et al, something to fear. It is true to say that the exhale is very important to vapers (as apparently is actually seeing it!) but I think it's fair to say that most of us could do without that aspect for short periods if it causes less offence. We need to develop some sort of ettiquette I think.
On a recent trip to Brussels I found myself in the departure area of the Eurostar with about 400 other people. It is an enclosed and almost underground area with no windows. Eurostar apparently have no policy on e-cigarettes, or if they have it wasn't obvious to me. I sat quite openly using my device, but ensured that I inhaled little to no vapour at all. Although the device itself attracted a few odd looks no one seemed the slightest bit bothered. A similar tactic worked on the train itself.
Most seasoned vapers can stealth vape any juice in the manner described above. Maybe stealth juice will be good for those who cannot, but it has its own drawbacks - its 100% PG which can cause a dry mouth and sore throat, and other intolerances in some people. At the end of the day though, it is not the vapour that will harm the vapers' cause, but public perception of it. It is pointless blowing clouds at someone and saying "there, that didn't hurt did it" when in the public mind (however wrong) the dangers are not short term but long term.
If we want vaping to be widely accepted we have to introduce it gradually, not force it upon people. Once people start to notice that neither we nor they are dropping dead in droves opinion will start to turn. We have to play the cards we've been dealt with, not the ones we think we should have been dealt.
Once people start to notice that neither we nor they are dropping dead in droves opinion will start to turn.
As happened with 'second-hand' tobacco smoke, you mean?
To my knowledge, despite the totally outrageous and fallacious claims of Tobacco Control, not one person has ever died as a result of being exposed to SHS, let alone 'droves' of them. But that fact hasn't stopped the anti-smoking zealots from inculcating the perception of deadly harm from exposure to tobacco smoke. I don't see that vapour will be treated any differently by those who are ideologically opposed to anything which even vaguely mimics smoking.
Once Tobacco Control get the confidence of a few junk studies under their belts, and the MSM on-message, the propaganda machine will inexorably swing its sights towards vapers, and the 'denormalisation' programme will begin in earnest.
Far from people 'noticing that neither we nor they are dropping dead in droves', they will be indoctrinated with the concept of 'the hidden menace' lurking in vapour.
It was quite frighteningly easily done with SHS. Unless I'm very much mistaken, we will soon be reading about the dangers of 'SHV'.
Stealth vaping refills have been offered in the past, around three years ago (you can find the reviews with a search). They were based on a PG/ethanol mix, I believe. They didn't sell. This might have been for multiple reasons, such as taste or effect, cost, or the fact that you can easily stealth vape by simply holding in the exhale for a few seconds, or by mixing the exhale with new air inhaled to kill the vapour.
Essentially, exhaling clouds of vapour is a conscious decision and can be avoided. Anyone can vape in full view without being detected if they so wish. For 100% success (such as at work when vaping is banned, on a plane, or in court) it requires an optimum choice of hardware and refill (compact device, avoidance of cloud-chasing gear, less glycerine in the mix); but there is no actual need to produce a visible cloud.
I mentioned this in company over the weekend and a lifelong non-smoker said simply, "Ignore those train people and have it in the toilet if you're so inclined." It made sense too because it won't activate any alarms nor leave any smell either. It shouldn't be necessary though.
I mentioned this in company over the weekend and a lifelong non-smoker said simply, "Ignore those train people and have it in the toilet if you're so inclined." It made sense too because it won't activate any alarms nor leave any smell either. It shouldn't be necessary though.
I recently flew long-haul with a carrier that has form for prosecuting vapers (one poor girl spent a couple of days in a Gulf State jail and was then fined and deported for vaping on one of their flights) and that's exactly what I did when I fancied a postprandial puff; slipped into the loo and vaped. No smoke to set off alarms and no telltale tobacco scent.
But I thoroughly resented being put in the position of having to vape clandestinely. In fact I thoroughly resent the smoking ban on planes full stop.
@nisakiman Yes, it was perhaps naive of me to assume that not dropping dead would be good enough evidence for tobacco control scientists given what has gone before.
I just spotted a typo in my comment, 2nd paragraph 'inhaled' should be exhaled.
"Ignore those train people and have it in the toilet if you're so inclined."
You're sure he was talking about e-cigs, I presume? ;)
I watched the same VTTV episode and disagreed with most about the vapour ... at the time. For me it's always been about the throat hit, but the "close your eyes and vape" test does show that the vapour is a central part of the appeal.
I do disagree with Twiglet in the same manner as nisakiman does. For every day that vapers are polite and respectful, it's another day for antis to get their lies out and indoctrinate a gullible public into being terrified of vapour. To see through a lie, people have to be shown it first hand - it's clear that laws against passive smoke were helped along by natural prejudices about the smell which many people didn't like. There isn't the same with e-cigs so it will be far more difficult for tobacco control to convince the public to buy into their fantasies, but only if the public are able to see what is being discussed and experience it for themselves.
"Several guests were vaping but one (there's always one) was being deliberately ostentatious, to make a point, perhaps."
Some people really do feel the need to flaunt it. I was out for a meal with a colleague who revelled in the dirty looks he got from others in a restaurant where we was vaping, he's also known to whip an e-cig out in meetings etc. Of course it's to make a point.. the point being 'na na you can't stop me'. I think it's counterproductive because, as it so happens restaurants and employers *can* stop people vaping on the premise??? and they're increasingly doing so.
As others have said, you can vape away without anyone knowing if you want to. Not everywhere, but most places where prohibition hasn't been expressly advertised I vape on trains, in the office, at the football (not sure if my club have banned it yet) and I'm. It sure anyone has ever noticed.
Vapour might not last as long in the air as cigarette smoke and it might not set off smoke alarms, but I disagree with DP and JM here – e-cig vapour does have something of a lasting after-smell which is very distinctive and totally different to tobacco smoke. I used to have a colleague who vaped in the office on occasion and I could always tell when he’d had one, even if he wasn’t vaping when I walked in. Depending on the liquid used, I guess, it was either slightly fruity, a bit sweet and sickly, or what I used to call “artificially aromatic” like a kind of overly-chemical aftershave. It never smelled like tobacco smoke, sadly, but I’ll bet it won’t be long before the “pooh-stinky-pooh” brigade learn to recognise these smells (because they are quite distinctive) and, of course, complain about how “disgusting” they are and associate them with all sorts of dire ailments which “those nasty vapers are inflicting on me and my cheeeldren,” thus giving tinpot-dictator style organisations like Irish Rail and all the airlines yet another “reason” to ban them, even in the loos. Though quite how they’d identify exactly who was vaping and when would be a bit of a problem. Maybe the smoke alarms, already fine-tuned to go off at a whiff of smoke, will be adapted to go off at the touch of even a drop of airborne vapour. But they’ll find some way of banning it, whether in the loos or elsewhere, you can be sure of that.
Because it is so easy to stealth vape, banning e cigs in public places cannot really be enforced. My daughter even saw someone vaping in Wetherspoons, where as everyone knows it is banned.
I agree Misty. My E-Cig stinks for sure so I don't use it often. My family prefer the smell of fresh tobacco than an ecig, another prefers the smell of a roll up than a ready-rolled manufactured tobacco cig, but the point is each to their own. Smell is subjective. No law says we must love some smells or hate others.
@ Misty. Yes, I agree, the vapour does have a distinct smell. Not strong, but certainly identifiable. It was with that fact in mind that I chose to fill my e-cig with menthol liquid before I embarked on my long-haul flight, judging that the menthol odour would be the hardest to separate out from the other toilet / toiletries smells.
Like others I vape without producing vapour when necessary. Trains etc. Some flavours do create a smell - like an old sweet shop, one of my work colleagues said. But its very hard to complain about an old sweet shop smell. That and they don't set off alarms makes their very difficult to ban.
"But its very hard to complain about an old sweet shop smell."
I hate the smell of old sweet shops but good manners means that it should be very hard to complain about any smell that someone dislikes if there are many who disagree with them. The simple fact is, not everyone hates the smell of fresh aromatic tobacco burning and in fact many absolutely love it. What should be the issue here is the lack of tolerance by those with appalling manners who think they have some form of God Given Right to complain about smells that they dislike even when those smells won't harm them whether smoke or vapour.
At the time of writing I am sitting at Wetherspoons (a famous English pub chain who has banned vaping). I playfully suggested to the waitress that the chain should lift this ban. She responded along the lines of:
"I disagree with you. Despite being a smoker myself, I as a customer of Wetherspoons would not appreciate sitting next to someone vaping".
"Fair enough", I said, "let us agree to disagree on that point" and she laughed.
I then decided to surf and stumbled onto this article and subsequently called her to my table again with the question "Ok, I hear you, but it seems as though there might be an ecig product that doesn't exhale vapour". She looked at this page and said, " well, in that case I really don't see how I could stop you. It could be an asthma inhaler for all I know".
But I agree... The vapour is a part of the charm. However, I'm personally prepared to buy a separate Mod to be used at Whether spoons :-)
Chris