Dave and the death of democracy
Thursday, October 20, 2011 at 10:29 If Scotland can have referendums on devolution and independence, I don't see why the United Kingdom can't have a similar ballot on our relationship with the European Union.
Since the last referendum on Britain's membership of the EEC (as it then was) in 1975, there have been two referendums on Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK, the first in 1979, the second in 1997. Another referendum, on Scottish independence, has been promised by 2015.
Membership of the EU is far more important to most people in Britain than devolution or an independent Scotland. Is that why the prime minister doesn't trust the people to vote on it?
Frankly, I would expect the pro-EU establishment to win a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU for the same reason that I expect the majority of people in Scotland to reject independence – fear of the unknown or the perceived risks of 'going it alone'. (In Scotland's case I believe those risks are genuine, but if the majority want to take that risk good luck to them.)
The fact that the political establishment is afraid to debate our membership of the EU and then allow people a choice says everything we need to know about the ruling elite in Britain today.
So much for democracy.
PS. The MP behind the motion for a referendum on Britain’s future relationship with the EU is none other than David Nuttall.
David also proposed last year's 10-Minute Rule Bill to amend the smoking ban. He has attended several Forest events in the past year including Stand Up for Liberty! in Manchester on October 4.
Reader Comments (10)
Surely this is democracy in action - we democratically elect members of parliament to make decisions. In this case they are going to decide whether we should have a referendum. Just because you fear that factions within parliament will bring pressure so that they decide to vote against what you want doesn't make it any less democratic. Be honest, if they did agree to a referendum similar factions would work on a wider scale to influence the public vote. It isn't any different. You, as a lobbyist know that very well.
A three-line whip is not democratic. A free debate and a free vote, allowing MPs to represent the views of their constituents, is.
Oh, don't be silly. Without the LibDems being under constant three-line whips we wouldn't have the coalition. Oh hang on. You're right, that is what the country wants now...
That's rubbish. Are you suggesting that Lib Dem MPs, given a free vote, would bring down the Coalition government and generate an election? It would be political suicide because many of them would lose their seats, and they know it. What political planet are you living on?
Well done David Nuttall I didn't know he was behind this. I would ask everyone to email,phone,maybe a bit late to write to there mps, because the EU vote takes place on Monday, And ask them to vote "YES" for holding a referendum on whether the UK should remain a member of the EU on the current terms, leave the EU, or renegotiate the terms of its membership in order to create a new reletionship basses in trade and cooperation. I've emailed my mp for whom repersents Dartford, And he did however support David Nuttall's 10-minute rule bill last October to amend the smoking ban and i did thank him for that when i saw him, which i do see him ever so often.
A statement and a question.
Statement. If there was a refurendum on continued membership of the EU, and there was a small majority (which there would be) in favour of leaving, there would be another one, and they would make damn sure that there was a small majority voting to stay in. It is the Irish way.
Question. Does a three line whip mean that MPs have to form three lines before they can get to the voting box, and each line has an MP telling them which way to vote?
I'm utterly unconvinced that if the British people were given the vote on whether to say in or leave the EU they would vote to leave. If the referendum were confirmed there would be major debates - business owners would press their emloyees for an 'in' vote as they will say it'll harm their businesses - and therefore jobs - people will realise that it could make travelling to Europe more difficult (have you seen the queue for non-EU nationals at Charles de Gaulle?) and then people will realise that any dreams they have of retiring to Spain or southern France could be threatened.
Also, whatabout those brits who already live in the EU? Estimates suggest that there could be as many as 3 million. Currently the majority of these people do not vote in UK elections - they would certainly insist they they have a say in such a decision as it will affect their rights to live and work in the EU. These people are also never polled as they're not in the UK - so its 3 million voters who are very likely to vote for IN, that'll be 3 million voters from no-where as far as the pollsters are concerned.
However, that all said - even the UKIP say they would be prepared to talk to the EU and have some level of agreements with the EU - regarding trade/labour and residency. OK - but remember that all these agreements would have to be reciprocal. So EU nationals would still be able to live and work in the UK and the UK would still have to comply with several areas of EU legislation to keep the trade deals alive. This is exactly the situation Switzerland is in - it has to abide by EU laws and has no say in their drafting. The Swiss Federal Cabinet would join the EU tomorrow - if it wasn't for the need of a referendum.
For those pressing for a vote - this could well be a case of careful what you wish for. If the vote decides to stay in (as I think it will be) the issue of EU membership will be settled for the next 50 years.
@Timbone a 3 line whip is as strong a signal as you can get. In the past in the 1970s with wafer thin majorities Labour stretchered one poor hospitalised MP into the chamber to vote. It is seen as the ultimate betrayal to vote against it. Steve Hilton is Cameron's Director of Strategy, in this tweet he does not seem a happy camper.
"SteveHiltonGuru STEVE Hilton
TONNE OF BRICKS: Is what awaits Euro rebels. 3 line whip. A few 'quiet words' being shelled out today. #Hiltonator"
stevehiltonguru on Twitter is a spoof. Clue: "Policy guru to the Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and misanthrope. I eschew shoes, manners and convention."
Mark Butcher - you may be right but that doesn't excuse the Govts past and present for not asking us. Some people I know are more pissed off about that even though if asked, they would vote yes to stay in.
The Eu is a dictatorship - that is one huge reason to vote out, in my view. Travel between European nations and emigration abroad was always possible before. Don;'t let them fool you into thinking that suddenly the borders would close and we would be lepers across Europe. It won't. Other nations want to trade and want what we have but without the cost and interference of unelected masters we cannot vote out in the EU Parlt. It is the Parlt that is the problem.
I can't vote yes for more senseless dictaks which simply create jobs for people to continually make stupid laws. I'd rather we had nothing and rebuild a much more socially health society than one that takes its ideology from Stalin
It is appalling that we are at this stage. We should have been asked years ago. That is where the problem lies and refusing to give us credit for having any wits about us will only make the electorate hate this Govt even more than it does now.